How to Leverage Certifications to Strengthen Your Sustainability Foundations (With John Hubbard)

So today I'm joined by John Hubbard from FIRA and we're going to discuss certifications. We'll explore questions such as what are the main certifications for furniture companies, how can furniture companies choose the right certification, and also things like how can they leverage certification to grow their business. But first, John, can you introduce yourself for the audience?

Hello, my name is John Hubbard. I'm a chemist by training and I work for FIRA International. They're part of the much wider Element Group. I have spent almost 30 years in the consumer products industry, initially as a sort of providing testing and advice on chemicals, but more recently in the sustainability and legislative fields. I sit on a number of standards committees, both at a national and European level.

Sounds great. And for people who have never heard about FIRA, can you tell us a bit what it is all about?

FIRA International are the preferred technical partner of the Furniture Industry Research Association, which was an industry body which was set up in the 1950s to support the British furniture industry. It's developed into commercial testing, but the Research Association provides advice, support, and lobbying for its members.

Does it mean that you work primarily with British companies, or have you expanded your geographical scope in the recent years?

Well, with the nature of furniture being a large item, most of our testing is done with British companies. But, for example, I am responsible for the Furniture and Sustainability Programme (FISP), and we have a number of European members in that scheme.  So it's not just linked to the UK, but a majority of our testing does come from UK providers.

Very clear. And can you tell us a bit about FISP that you started mentioning?

Yes, the Furniture Industry Sustainability Programme is a scheme which FIRA operates on behalf of its members. FIRA does not own the scheme, but it is supported by the other trading bodies for the furniture industry. That's the National Bed Federation, Contract Interiors UK, and the recently renamed British Furniture Association. They helped set it up and support it and help manage it. But FIRA operates on behalf of their members. It's a membership scheme for sustainability. And it's modular so that it's accessible by both small companies right up to the very large suppliers. It's mostly had success in the contract furniture sector where it has been part of what's known as the SKA rating for fit-out projects. FISP was one way that companies could earn the marks that you needed in that SKA rating system. And that has driven it forward, particularly in the contract interiors sector. But we are very keen for the scheme to have much wider applications, particularly in the domestic and retail sectors.

And what is the connection between the FISP and certifications in general?

Well, FISP was designed to basically become a parallel certification to go alongside ISO 14001 for environmental management systems. We recognized that because ISO 14001 was so well known and so well established, a lot of people had it and understood what it meant. But because it is about the system, it is very generic. It wasn't necessarily addressing the specific industry issues such as the use of timber and reuse and remanufacture. So we designed the scheme alongside that, so that it recognizes the work that you've already done to get ISO 14001 but overlays industry-specific applications like the use of timber and end-of-life management issues.

So today's topic, it's going to be all about certifications. And the first question I had for you, John, was very general, but I was wondering, as a furniture company, what kind of benefits can I get from getting one certification or multiple certifications? Why, in your opinion, most furniture companies engage in certification processes?

Whenever I talk to companies about certification, I need them to make sure that they understand what their goals are in achieving that certification. Having certification for certification's sake is not really what we're looking at. Now a lot of the time it is driven by their supply chain. It is something that their customers expect to see or even in cases of public procurement demand to see by having that in place. So obviously that is an economic driver if they've not got them, they can't participate in the bidding frameworks for certain contracts. But that's the basic level. What can also be important is where as an organization they want to position themselves not just in terms of their customers but also in terms of prospective employees and their current employees. What are we saying about the ethos as a company? So they have an important role to play in the culture of a business.

That makes a lot of sense. So it's not all about external pressure from clients. It can also come from an internal will to just make things better, have a better ethos, attract talent, etc. It does make a lot of sense. Up until now, John, we mentioned the FISP, we mentioned the ISO certifications. Could you tell us, in your opinion, what are the most popular certifications right now in the furniture industry?

ISO 14001 really is doing a lot of the heavy lifting, but that is very much an environmental management system. So it is focusing on those aspects that can be measured and that are environmental. And again, because it's about the system and not necessarily about the goals, whilst there is that commitment within it to continue improvement, the goals that you're achieving are set within the organization. So they can be set relatively low or relatively high. In terms of what you appear from the outside, they're supposed to be the same type of certification. But it was designed to go inside with ISO 9001 for quality because the approach that is taken within the two schemes is very similar. So if you got a quality manual, it is relatively easy to transfer the thinking and the processes behind those into the environmental management system. Obviously, what it doesn't take account of are things like the social and economic aspects of sustainability. And that's where some of the other specific social audits coming such as the B Corp or the EcoVadis which are much wider in their scope in terms of their ethical aspect. We know that a lot of customers are using these to drive sustainability within their supply chains. But again, like I said, ISO 14,001, these schemes have been developed for a wide range of businesses and are not industry-specific. And occasionally, the auditors are trying to treat every industry in the same way. And so that doesn't address the specific challenges that our sector faces.

So if I recap very quickly, you have the ISO certifications, you have the EcoVadis, the B Corp. Besides that, are there any options available on the market, or would you say it's like the main options? And of course, there is the FISP as well.

FISP was designed to support people along that supply chain. People will often go for FISP before they get ready for ISO 14001 or have it run alongside their ISO 14001. Once you go beyond those big headline certifications, you're probably more getting into issues around product. So we get into things like eco-labels and product environmental footprints which are very specific to the product and they're not industry-wide so again that's gonna be a lot of testing and specific information about products and it also has a problem. If you have a whole range of products and you choose a number of them to get one of those certifications, how do you sell that in terms of your wide range of products? Because some are having the certificate, the eco-label or whatever it is, and others don't. And that's going to raise questions in the minds of potential consumers.

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Roday we're going to focus on company-wide certifications because, of course, like you said, there are probably the certifications that help you drive the most systematic kind of change. They will apply to all your products, to your entire company. And that's what we're going to focus on today. So before we dig deeper for each certification, how do you usually approach this certification selection process. First, do you recommend going after multiple certifications? Do you recommend focusing on one specific certification? And then how do you pick the right certification for your company? What kind of questions should you ask yourself to make sure to just make the right choice in terms of certification?

Well, the first question is understanding where you are and what's going to happen. So if you have a an environmental management system that you're using, it may not be certified but you're using it, then you are probably getting towards being ready for ISO 14001. If not, you've got to go back and say: "right I need to have all this in place to start with". And then you get to the issue of resource. Now if you've got a small company which is sort of less than 20 people, that's going to have a different resource discussion to one where there's several hundred people and there may be someone who is dedicated either in the sustainability role or at least in a compliance role. But in a very small company the compliance manager is also going to probably be the operations manager or the health and safety manager as well. So again it's about what level of resource you're going to have to invest against what the benefit will be going forward. Is it something that you can't do without because it's something your customers demand or is it something that's nice to have? That's then going to have an internal discussion about what your priorities actually are with regard to expenditure, resource and outcomes.

It's interesting because if I sum up rapidly, you have to consider both external factors, like what do your clients require from you and if they have precise demands, and it's a no-brainer, right? If you know that to participate in, to gain new markets, to be selected during call for tenders, etc. maybe they require specific certifications. But when it's not the case, then you should also take into account your own internal resources and issues, right? Do you have enough people to take care of that internally? And what kind of goals do you want to set for your company? Is that right?

Yeah. I wouldn't say that there is one fixed route for any particular company. It's very much about where on the journey do you need to go next and a lot of the time that will be very obvious from the conversations you're having both internally and with your customers. But I would also recommend not going straight for everything all at once you would say: "right we're going to do FISP, we're going to do ISO 14001, because we've already got ISO 9001, we'll run ISO 14001 alongside that, then we'll see about moving on". And again with ISO 14001 you have to have a sequential approach. You have to have your management system, you then have to run it before you get the audit, so you know what is going to be happening. And again, implementing those systems will often tell you an awful lot about your company in terms of where the gaps are, what you're doing well, and what you're doing right, because it's a big learning curve. And one of the things we say about FISP, it is an opportunity for you to sort of recognize those steps that you've probably already taken and have them recognized in an externally verified format with an audit.

That makes a lot of sense. And it reminds me of the first episode of this podcast was with Mikkel from a company called UMAGE. They're based in Denmark. And he told us how he used the B Corp certification, and especially the assessment questionnaires, just to understand what needed to be changed in the company. And like you said, he learned a lot just from this questionnaire. This part makes a lot of sense. Now, if that's okay with you, John, what I would love doing is go through the main certifications and try to understand what kind of things they require, what kind of things you can get from them. Let's say, for example, if we start with the ISO certifications, what does the process look like if I want to be certified?

Le's start with ISO 14001. You need to establish what your potential environmental impacts are, so you need to understand everything you're doing both in terms of what comes into your business, what goes out as product but also what goes out as emissions, noise, dust and other factors that could impact the local or the wider environment. So again it's about understanding the environmental impacts of your business. So you really have to draw up all the things that happen within your business that could result in an impact.

Is it something that you can do internally or does it typically require hiring external consultants?

A lot of smaller companies will have consultants who will come in to help them get ready. Because another thing you need to do is when you develop your manual so everything you do is written down in the manual the important thing is about doing what you say you will do. So you develop your manual in all the different sectors to control the environmental risks and minimize environmental risks. And within that there is a requirement to internally audit to make sure that you are meeting those requirements. And again that requires people to have suitable training. In the small organizations, that may not be many people so again that's where consultants can come in and they will do those internal audits on your behalf to point out where you're not doing what you say you're doing and how that would reflect at an actual assessment audit and what you need to correct, in order to meet that standard. Because that's the thing: any internal audit if you're not doing what you say you're doing, you raise a nonconformity and that improves so that when you get to the actual audit with the external body they will see the best version of your organization as possible. But a lot of the time, not all consultants are working at the same level. I think there's improving, of course, there's organizations like UCAS who support the industry and will certify the people providing certification. But again, it's important that you choose external consultants very well, so that they understand your business, you understand the service that they will give to them, and that you are all aligned towards your end goal of certification, an ongoing certification and continual improvement.

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That's very clear. Thanks, John. And the next question is probably, how much time do you think it takes in general, and what kind of budget does it take? How much money should a company invest in this kind of audit just a ballpark estimate because I guess it's different for each company.

We do not provide auditing services in that sense  —we used to have as part of our bigger Element group a company that they recently hived off into a different company where they will be better served. But  ISO 14001 audits are quite expensive. They normally cost a number of days, so you're paying for the auditors to be there for a number of days and then there's administration fees on top of that. So that's thousands of pounds. But still a lot of the cost is more going to be involved in the amount of work that you have to do before you're ready for that audit.

That makes perfect sense. And the last question about ISO 1401 is: what kind of benefits could you get from this certification? So I guess there is an obvious internal benefit of, like you said, you learn about your organization, you understand, you know, what needs to be fixed, what needs to be improved. But if I think about my question is, is this label recognized in any way? Will it help you maybe prove that you're greener, doing better than other companies? Is it the case for the ISO 14001 certification?

14001 is very well recognized globally. That's the really positive thing. It's a mature scheme, it's existed for years and people know what the scheme is about. However, one of the things you just pointed out: a lot of people don't necessarily think behind that scheme and think that if you you have ISO 14001, you are a green company. What it means is, one, you are committed to continual improvement, because that is part of the scheme. Every time the auditor comes, they expect to see continual improvement in the aspects that you've identified. So that's a real positive. So you are committed to individual improvement. But as I said earlier, it does not mean that you have set the highest possible environmental standards. It means that you have set environmental standards and that you are achieving them and you, as I say, there is this commitment to improvement and you understand your impact on the environment and you have made a commitment to having those externally verified. But it does not mean you are the most environmental companies in the sector. You might be but that that certification does not say it.

So in terms of recognition, I guess it's a problem right for potential customers they. I guess they can value that you've done eforts, but they don't know how much you've done, right?

Again, what they're trying to do is manage a supply chain and having someone at 14,001 means that they know that they have reached a certain level. So it's well above compliance with legislation and that's commitment to continuous improvement and understanding their environmental impacts and improvement. But that's where it's used there, that's what they're saying is we know that there is something in place, it gives us confidence that they are a legitimate company and that they have invested this resource to provide us with this certification. I think where they want more surety is where they would be asking for things like EcoVadis or B Corp.

Okay, we'll get to that in a minute, but before that, I was curious, when we started discussing about FISP, it sounded like there is a connection between the ISO 14,001 and the FISP certification that you provide. I was curious to understand how the FISP certification works and how it differs from the ISO 14001 certification.

ISO 14001, as I said, is basically looking at the management system you've got, you're doing what you say you do. What FISP has done is that it has developed modules. There are nine modules on the environmental side and six modules on the economic and social side and we have two sets of criteria, one for manufacturers and designers and another for fit out companies, distributors and retailers. The questions that we ask in those audits are the same but the difference is which modules are mandatory because in the manufacturers one we are looking at energy consumption and waste and particularly use of timber, those are mandatory sections whereas in the distributors we are then looking more closely at how they manage sustainability within their supply chain because obviously they're not doing the manufacturing so we want to focus more on how they choose partners who provide that sustainability. So we have different mandatory modules and because there is modular you don't have to complete every module and it's asking specific questions whereas I say what the ISO 14001 is does is says are you doing what you say you're doing, we're saying how are you doing with compared to the industry and we we have a dynamic system whereby we do the criteria. I think the last criteria were introduced in 2023 and became mandatory for 2024 and we'll probably do another review in either 2026 or 2027 to make sure we're pushing everything forward and taking it forward.

So it means, it doesn't mean that while the ISO certification, you're basically certified that you're doing what you say you're doing, but with FISP, it's like, not only it's that, but you also have to follow thresholds, like you have to reach specific goals set by the FISP certification?

Yeah, I mean what we're doing is looking that they have set targets and that they have plans in place but also in things like timber that they are using certified timber and promoting certified timber and those are things that can't really be asked in the ISO 14001 audit. So again it's allowing furniture manufacturers to understand the level playing field of things that are specific and relevant to them. But one of the things we do do is we recognize ISO 14001 and so if a company has ISO 14001 they're on a two-year audit schedule whereas if they didn't have that certification we would audit them every year for FISP. So that's where it works alongside it. We recognize the work and effort and systems that go into having such an organization in terms of its orders and its culture.

And it was super interesting, you know, John, you mentioned, for example, the need to have your wood certified, like, I guess, FSC certified or maybe PEFC. I was wondering if there are any other examples of strict requirements that you expect from your members to be certified?

One of the things that we do not want to be, because we want the scheme to be accessible across the board, is being prescriptive. And so in each module, you have to score 50% of the marks available. Because we know that there are some requirements we've put in there that you get a score for, that will only be relevant to the very biggest companies. So we would not expect everyone, anyone to really be getting 100%. So what we're looking for is, and this is important in how we communicate with our customers, we will give them an audit report based on the criteria, which is confidential to them. What is visible through our website is that they are members, they've been certified, and what they are doing and what their areas of interest are. So the website, companies could go onto the website and say, "I want someone to provide me with a kitchen, a mattress, office seating." And we will divide in sectors so they can pick this, and then we'll do it geographically. So they can pick maybe a local supplier of those things. So we're not being prescriptive. Obviously, timber is where we are probably most prescriptive, because there again we're using the certifications that exist in the timber sector, PEFC and FSC which are well established and again they have their own rules and schemes which we cannot hope to replicate. So we recognize those within our scheme but having done that we then make sure that in order to get our certification you are part of one of those schemes and you are not just members of the scheme just for tick-boxing, you are actually using them and promoting that concept within your supply chain, your customer base.

That sounds great and just to react to what you said, it's true that you have the FISP website, everything is public, you can go to the directory and you can see exactly which companies were certified and that's very interesting. That's great and again there is always this question of you know budget and internal resources. How demanding would you say this FISP certification is for companies wanting to to get certified?

It can be used and we did work with a retailer a few years ago who was trying to encourage their supply chain to join FISP and he said if you're not ready to go to ISO 14001, start with FISP because it will lead you in that direction. So because we are a relatively small organization in terms of our audit capacity and it's a relatively small scheme we have maybe between 75 and 80 members at any one time. That's not the same as an ISO 14001 audit where there'll be auditing hundreds of companies through one organisation. So our resource is limited, but we are for the industry and of the industry and that is the benefit. And these are options going forward. These are areas where you could improve because of the business that you are, what we've seen, and this would not be too onerous. Again, a lot of businesses are constrained either in terms of the premises they're in, because obviously furniture manufacturer takes a lot of space, it's not so that you could just have a business, you've got the warehousing storage, and a lot of businesses are constrained. They're in very old buildings that they've been there many, many decades. Or they're in landlord controlled buildings, which then limits what they can do in terms of things like adopting solar power or their landlord might be in control of the electricity supply. So, again, it's about how you can do the best within the constraints that are currently with your business.

Makes perfect sense. And, you know, earlier we discussed the benefits of the ISO certifications, saying that it proves that you're doing something, but it's difficult to expect more benefits from the ISO certification. What about the FIPS standard? I think you mentioned the impact on the SKA rating, for example.

The SKA rating was originally run by the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. They included FISP as part of their scoring system so that was very much a driver for people to get FISP in the contract furniture sector. Obviously we've grown beyond that and that's not necessarily the only driver that there is now because now a lot of other organizations are putting it into their tenders. It's an option alongside ISO 14001 to ensure that they've got a wide supply base. Before I came into the furniture industry I worked in the footwear and apparel sector and that has a much wider supply base. You could be buying footwear from all over the world particularly from the the far east. With furniture being a much bulkier item, there's been a much better retention of manufacture in, in native markets. So there are probably a lot more furniture factories left in the UK than there are footwear factories. And I'm saying that  from being in North Hamptonshire, which used to be the center of the UK shoe industry. That means that you're dealing with a different sort of level of risk because supply chain, the longer your supply chain, the greater the risk you have. There was a lot of cultural shorthand, particularly a few years ago by sort of trying to depict that everything coming out to certain regions of the world was poor quality because of a few specific instances. Um, the Mattel led in toys issue was one particular one. But in terms of safety, the European Union schemes around things like REACH and their environmental legislation means that most people operating within the UK and the EU --because obviously even following Brexit we still have a lot of legacy environmental legislation that originated within the EU. So we're still operating at that quite high level. So if you're using those markets as your supply chains. That means that you have at least a better hope that the baseline is higher than it would be if you're going out to much further away for your supply chain. And again, then there's the distribution. Furniture is a very large bulky items. The logistics in getting it from the far side of the world into national markets here is a lot harder. So again, it means that having local supply chains is beneficial both in terms of logistics and environment.

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So John, we've covered ISO certifications, the FISP certification, but in the intro you also mentioned other certifications such as EcoVadis and B corp. Could you tell us, you know, what is the biggest difference between the certifications we mentioned until now and the Ecovadis and B Corp qualifications?

EcoVadis and B Corp are run by external organizations so obviously ISO is run by the International Standards Organization so there's a general national consensus because each member state has its seat at the at the ISO. B Corp and EcoVadis can set their own standards. Now they've come out of the NGO issues. The advantage of them is that they can set their standards so they can be prescriptive, they can be challenging and they can address those issues that aren't covered in things like ISO, particularly around ethical work practices, labour and fair pay. But again with anything they are written across the board so they are not industry specific. Most of my experience of B Corp and EcoVadis has been talking to my customers who have gone through the process themselves. A lot of them have found it a very positive experience and they've learned a lot about their own organization, about how their supply chain can be leveraged and sustainability and ethical practices put into the organization. But the fact that these organizations set their own standards and that they are not industry specific does limit their applicability. Some external people think that they don't go far enough, others think they are too demanding from a practical perspective of actually complying. And I know that there is a lot of work that goes into completing the questionnaires and the audits in regards to them, but a lot of the time from a firm's perspective they don't necessarily see the applicability of all the sections because they're not really focused on supply chains that are probably much different, a different form to the ones that they're used to.

Yeah, the challenge is that when you look at B Corp, for example, they're going to certify software companies, banks, companies selling bottled water and furniture. So I guess when you're filling in the questionnaire, it must be just a bit weird to see some of the questions because I guess these businesses have very few in common.

And likewise if you've got a small workshop in the UK or Germany that's employing maybe 20 people. Asking about labour practices that the sort of concerns that might occur to a factory in China that maybe have 2,000 people in it. Those are very different sets of questions and it's very difficult to demonstrate how your small organization meets those requirements because it does just by the nature of its size and the work that is done. So it is a challenge and there have been some quite high profile companies who've said that they're not going to continue with B Corp because then they're not going far enough, they're not challenging the industry enough and so they think that the complexity of completing those audits may be not worth their time based on the benefit they would get, i.e. the opportunity to bid for certain contracts that would demand those certifications.

That was my next question.  What kind of benefits you get from these certifications and what can you expect from B Corp and Ecovadis versus ISO? One thing that I suspect is that B Corp, for example, is very important when you're selling mostly B2C furniture, because end customers know about the B Corp certification, they've seen the label on everyday products. While if I go to my local furniture store and I see that the manufacturer is ISO-certified, I probably don't care because as a customer, I don't know what is this ISO certification. Is this how you perceive things or do you have a different opinion on that?

The jury is out i think on how the domestic customers approach environmental and sustainability issues when making these sorts of purchases. There is the concept of the "ethical consumer" and they are having impacts particularly on bulk items. So for example, toilet rolls and issues where products where there are identifiable sustainability issues in the supply chain that the customer is aware of so long as you deforestation. I make a then make ethical decision based on that but when you get to large purchases like furniture from a from a domestic consumer it's difficult to understand because there's not repeat purchase, so you can't monitor the trends as well how much that recognition of sustainability plays in that decision making process. I'm sure there is some research out there but I don't necessarily think that will be conclusive. But I still think that even the larger organizations particularly banks, governments, big tech companies, the education sector who are very visible, are very keen to have these additional certification because what the B Corp and EcoVadis do is it takes into account the labor and the supply chain issues, the social aspect the complete ESG rather than just the environmental side of things. It's again a building block. I wouldn't say start from scratch and go straight for B Corp. I'd say right you work towards being there, but again a lot of time that's going to depend on what customers demand and what work you want to go after in terms of certification.

But that's super interesting. So if I on the stem followed you well, there could be some sort of sequence where you go first with FISP or ISO because you start with the environmental aspect. And if the social aspect is important to your customers as well, you can complement that with B Corp or Ecovadis, and then you get the full picture covered from environmental, supply chain, labor issues, social issues.
Yeah because I think that there is that complementary aspects to all of these. With this ISO certification, you are basically building a blocks of having a system that works and you're able to monitor and understand and improve what goes on. Then you can say: "well we are doing really well at this, we feel we got a really good story to tell and we're having that impact in our supply chain". So that's when. And we know that if we do this, it will open up a whole range of potential opportunities for us. Then we will get that additional certification. But unless there is an overwhelming drive in your business for those opportunities, don't just certify for certification sake. Get the ones that will best benefit your business and reflect your values.

That sounds great. As a closing question, I was wondering if you had any tips or recommendations for a company considering getting certified?
Well, the first thing to do is talk to the people who will be doing the certifications to understand what the process is and where you already are. One of the things that we will say to FISP, we will, when we start talking to people, we send them a copy of the criteria and say: "Right, read this document and go through it as though you were auditing yourself and sort of score yourself". Now, obviously the auditor may not score exactly the same way, but if you're scoring at 75% across the board, you probably are on the way and it will make you think about the things that you're not doing. Oh, we've not got this. That's, that's where we need to target ourselves before we can go to do that. And again, you got to think about how you want this to roll out within the organization.  What you don't want to do is, is give it to one person, the sustainability person, right? "You've got to do that." That's, that's what you're doing. It is more of "we" as an organization because it will involve changes in procurement, in dispatch, in packaging, in manufacture and even in everyone using different waste streams and understanding waste streams and understanding energy consumption. So everyone needs to be involved in, needs buy in from both senior level but that needs to be communicated to the whole workforce.

So as a recap, it's not really about the certification itself, it's also about the journey, what you learn about your company, how it helps you also have more coherence internally. And yeah, it sounds great. It sounds like it's not about getting a label or a stamp, it's also about driving meaningful change inside your company.

Yeah, and that's what these standards are set out to do. They're basically meant to make the supply chain more robust, so that everyone along the supply chain can make better decisions. And it helps every organization to understand what's going on in their own organization, but it also allows them to challenge with authority their own supply chain, because we've done this, what are you doing to support this?